Do violence. Watch for Gerry. Daemonhammer wrote: My original point was how the OP in his infinite wisdom portrayed us Polish and the Lithuanians as the bad guys for taking land from the Germans post WWII considering what fun things were going on in Ireland at the time To add even more insult to this, he ignored how Britain and USA are largely responsible for the way borders look the borders were organised during Yalta conference which we did not get to be a part off.
I suppose hipocricy would be a better term. Smacks wrote: Daemonhammer wrote: My original point was how the OP in his infinite wisdom portrayed us Polish and the Lithuanians as the bad guys for taking land from the Germans post WWII considering what fun things were going on in Ireland at the time To add even more insult to this, he ignored how Britain and USA are largely responsible for the way borders look the borders were organised during Yalta conference which we did not get to be a part off.
Daemonhammer wrote: Someone always has to use the "he didnt do it personally" bomb in a historical debate. It serves no purpose. Smacks wrote: Daemonhammer wrote: Someone always has to use the "he didnt do it personally" bomb in a historical debate. It is not hypocritical because we don't know the OPs views on Ireland. You are just assuming the because he is posting from the UK that his politics must be indistinguishable from that of England the country, which is ridiculous.
Even if that were the case it wouldn't make any difference. Hypothetically if Poland did broker a deal with Stalin, then that would just be a statement of fact. Whatever happened to be going on in Ireland is not going to make it any less of a fact. Proving that the OP is a hypocrite, or a cross-dresser, or any number of other things would also not make it any less of a fact.
And is entirely irrelevant because this topic is about the Kaliningrad Oblast. Dakka 5. Member List. Recent Topics. Top Rated Topics. Forum Tools Forum Tools Search. Forum Index » Off-Topic Forum. Subject: Advert. Allod Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator. Oh, come on! Thatcher had a lot of misgivings about reunification, but Prussia wasn't one of them.
She had just led the UK through an economic crisis and wasn't very keen on a united Germany changing the dynamics of European economics yet again, she probably realized that Germany would outgrow the industrial eye-level that the UK , France, Italy and the FRG had been on previously, and she opposed border changes as a matter of principle, which I can even get behind.
She certainly didn't fear Kohl marching into the Sudetenland next. And yes, it's the same thing with the Armenians. Even though this was genocide on a minority, and not a seizure of foreign territory, I say that wherever there was an Armenian majority is not Armenian land anymore, because the grandchildren, grand-grandchildren and grand-grand-grandchildren of the "squatters" are now living there. People have a right to their land, as in, the land that belongs to the living individuals. Call it squatters' rights if you want, we're all squatters.
To be just as placative as you were with the Armenians: I suppose the Americans can save themselves the hassle of another presidential election, because the US has to be given back to the natives, right? Maybe 20 out of , but, yeah, "every country in the world" will serve. And as far as the concept of nationality is concerned, he would be completely right. Today's Austria was a German state outside of the second Empire, nothing more, nothing less.
Our nationality only developed after being forbidden to join Germany, and people only began to see themselves as a "distinct German ethnicity" around WW2. Smacks Longtime Dakkanaut. I believe the UK 's current policy on overseas territories is very fair. Anyone is welcome to remain or leave the United Kingdom at any time, so long as the majority of the population are in favour. The UK has obviously had a lot of problems in the past with territories such as N.
Ireland, and I think we have really learned from that. I believe the present policy is an exceedingly good one. And previously Prussia was part of the Holy Roman Empire, along with a bunch of other smaller states. You can't pull that one without having to concede that practically all of that area of Europe can technically lay claim to Kaliningrad on the same principle.
It would be a bit daft if Italy could lay claim to ex-Prussian territory on the basis that part of Italy is descended from a state that once administered that section of land.
It's no less daft if the Germans do it now. I agree with you, but if you're going to use 'years of possession' as the basis for your argument that one party or the other doesn't have much of a claim, then the reality is that 'Germany' had possession of that territory for a few hundred years by way of its predecessor states which can trace a direct and legitimate lineage to the German Empire of the late s.
Oh gwad!.. As if Americans don't shoot at us enough when we're on the same team. Sorry mate, its cultural conditioning, we here the accents and think 'bad guys'. Why do you think all the Imperial types in Star Wars have English accents?? Thats an accent you can trust! One single predecessor state had a claim. To make another analogy, it would be like the United Kingdom claiming that it inherited it's right to Normandy from the English, or the Russians claiming their right to own Kazakhstan from the Soviet Union.
Just because two parcels of land used to belong to the same entity a hundred years ago, it does not grant successor states from one of those land parcels an automatic right to the second.
Otherwise, logically, you could flip it on its head, and say that actually, rather than returning Kaliningrad to Germany, Germany should be returning all of Prussia to Kaliningrad. They would have an equally strong claim.
Germany is not Prussia, any more than Kaliningrad is. You could then turn around and say that Kaliningrad is not an independent state, but part of Russia, so it has no claim, but then Russia can turn around and say that the rest of Prussia is now part of Germany and not an independent state either.
This is of course, ignoring the fact that the Polish were there before Prussia, who then also has an equally valid claim if you're going to pull the argument from history. Your posts since then are basically irrelevant, as they change to the criteria by which you evaluated legitimacy again, the basis of history measured by period of ownership over the territory in question , in other words you are changing the argument.
Prior to that point the line of succession, etc. Not quite. I'm saying that Russia and Germany as states both have possessed the land for roughly equivalent periods of time, therefore to discuss 'returning' the land to Germany is a bit daft, because the land has been 'Russian' for practically as long as it has been 'German'.
In other words: Ketara wrote: To me, that says that the Russians have as good a claim to the place on the basis of 'history' as the Germans do. My posts since then were responses to yours. Waving them away as irrelevant doesn't ignore the fact that they poke holes in the claim that 'Kaliningrad was once Prussian, which is almost the same as Germany, so we should consider them the same'.
Germany and Prussia are not the same thing. Because Germany has lost the Prussian Monarchy. It's been taken over as a dictatorship, then split in half, and then reunited again.
It's undergone more territorial and political changes since Prussia then I can shake a stick at. The only real claim that modern day Germany can have to possessing the land of Prussia is that both nations have occupied the same bit of land at different points in history. So you would support Great Britain in laying their claim to Normandy? There's also the fact that the 'German Empire' is not the 'Germany' of today.
Completely different institutions. Even if I recognised the right of the 'German Empire', that's no longer an entity which exists. Yep, the Falklands is a classic example. The people there want to be part of the UK , and so as long as the UK wants them then the Argentinians can shut the hell up. Another much less popular example is Tibet - the Han chinese living there now outnumber the Tibetans. Perhaps with a 0. What about the 3rd option of equal rule for the TIbetans and Han Chinese?
I'm not really sure how equal rule works when there are more Han than Tibetans. I mean, if Tibetans want to seperate and return to their own independant Tibet and the Han do not, how do you provide equal rule that pleases everyone? Daemonhammer Jovial Junkatrukk Driver Angloland.
My blood is boiling with rage now. Of course you brits dont remember Yalta and how along with the americans gave away Poland along with the rest of eastern europe to stalin at the end of wwii. How about you read up on the history of eastern europe before talking about us being cynical. And feth, the irony here is stunning. That is just not true. Scotland had a referendum and is going through a process of devolution right now.
And the people of N. Ireland who want independence are a minority. The majority have voted to remain part of the UK , and as we all know Northern Ireland like Tibet is an unfortunate situation because the original population was displaced, and the way it was done was indeed disgusting and reprehensible. However no one alive today had anything to do with it, and right or wrong, the people who grew up and live there now do have a right to exist.
To be honest I think it's a bit sad when English, Irish and Scots people who have lived and worked side by side for hundreds of years, and fought through two world wars together, can't put their differences aside.
It's not like the English ruling classes treated their own people much better historically. True except it was around 46 percent voted to leave the UK in Northern Ireland so not really a minority. Yes well that was 40 years ago, there was one done in recent years with the results I mentioned. Kain Fixture of Dakka Temple Prime. Is 46 percent less than 54 percent? Then it's a minority.
Words have meanings you know. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. Words have meanings indeed, and so there is a difference between saying that only a minority want to leave the UK and that almost half of the population wants to leave the UK.
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